Why I Chose To Be a School Counselor (and the role of NVLD) [Video]

By Understood

Not many people are aware of nonverbal learning disabilities (NVLD). Fewer still know the challenges of finding a job when you have NVLD. Michaela Hearst, who has NVLD, shares her career journey — and how she decided to be a school counselor so she could be there for students with learning differences. She also talks about how a social work degree can lead you to different career paths. Hear her story.

To find a transcript for this episode and more resources, visit the episode page at Understood. https://www.understood.org/podcast/ho…

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at thatjob@understood.org.

Understood is a nonprofit and social impact organization dedicated to shaping a world where the 1 in 5 people who learn and think differently can thrive. Learn more about “How’d You Get THAT Job?!” and all our podcasts at u.org/podcasts. Copyright © 2021 Understood for All, Inc. All rights reserved.

Transcript provided by YouTube (unedited)

0:01
[Music]
0:05
from the understood podcast network this
0:07
is how did you get that job a podcast
0:10
that explores the unique and often
0:11
unexpected career paths of people with
0:14
learning and thinking differences my
0:16
name is eleni mathil and i’m a user
0:18
researcher here at understood that means
0:20
i spend a lot of time thinking about how
0:22
we find jobs we love that reflect how we
0:24
learn and who we are
0:26
i’ll be your host
0:29
[Music]
0:30
so our next guest is someone with a
0:32
really unique story michaela hirst is a
0:35
school counselor in vermont who works
0:37
with middle and high school students
0:40
she has non-verbal learning disabilities
0:42
and is going to share with us
0:45
how her learning differences led her to
0:47
her current job welcome michaela
0:49
hi everyone i’m michaela hirst thank you
0:52
for that introduction you took a lot of
0:53
words right out of my mouth
0:55
it’s been a
0:56
very interesting journey that led me
0:58
here mikayla can you just give me a
1:01
little quick summary of you know what
1:02
you’re doing right now
1:04
my full title is student assistance
1:06
professional counselor or sap sap
1:09
counselor or even counselor that’s fine
1:12
i serve as a resource in school for
1:15
promoting mental health super important
1:17
and substance misuse prevention also
1:20
super important and i like tying in
1:22
prevention education which goes of
1:24
course you need that when you work in a
1:26
high school in a middle school but i
1:27
like tying that in with what it’s like
1:29
to be neurodivergent and the correlation
1:31
between academic and social struggles
1:34
and wanting to turn to substances so
1:36
that’s one of the things that going
1:38
forward i’m going to be focusing on
1:40
we’ve actually never had anyone on the
1:42
show with a non-verbal learning
1:43
disability oh first for everything yeah
1:46
could you like describe a little bit
1:48
about what your challenges are and what
1:51
that means for our audience
1:53
you know it’s funny i used to be asked
1:55
that question and i used to know right
1:56
off the bat but
1:58
just after a lot of self-searching and a
2:01
lot of therapeutic processes the answer
2:04
isn’t so clear-cut anymore
2:06
but i think ultimately my struggles most
2:08
of all are visual spatial relations
2:11
depth perception processing speed and i
2:14
have a lot of trouble self-starting
2:16
organization
2:18
so you just shared that it can impact
2:20
you spatially and things like that like
2:21
what does that look like day to day
2:23
driving was something that i needed to
2:25
work on for a long time my relationship
2:28
with driving is complicated in part
2:29
because i was hit by a car and obviously
2:32
i you know survived and i was very very
2:34
very lucky that day but when the
2:36
accident happened it left me very
2:38
apprehensive to drive for a very long
2:40
time and i was just crossing the street
2:42
i wasn’t driving at the time but as you
2:44
know driving requires a lot of visual
2:46
spatial awareness and depth reception
2:49
and i have my own car and i drive to
2:51
work every day and even when it
2:53
terrifies me i’m still like not there
2:55
yet it still scares me
2:57
but the only way i think i’m gonna
3:00
really push through it is the exposure
3:01
therapy if i just keep going and i feel
3:04
a little bit better each time which is
3:06
good this is good so that’s just you
3:07
know one example of how i made something
3:09
work for me and you said that you’re
3:11
constantly learning about yourself and
3:13
there’s been things that have surprised
3:15
you or that you’ve only recently made
3:16
the connection that it’s related to your
3:18
difference
3:19
can you think of any recent examples of
3:22
something that you’ve learned about
3:24
yourself
3:25
yeah i’ve learned that some challenges
3:28
just don’t go away as much as that would
3:30
be you know in an ideal world but fact
3:33
of the matter is my brain is wired
3:34
differently and the way i speak i go off
3:37
on tangents sometimes i think faster
3:39
when i can talk or i talk faster than i
3:41
can think
3:42
and it’s part of who i am and i’m still
3:45
working on accepting that
3:46
i know you’ve done a little bit of
3:48
writing for understood we’ve done a
3:49
number of blogs and i read that
3:52
in one of your blogs that you have
3:54
really strong memory do you want to talk
3:56
a little bit about that and any other
3:58
strengths
3:59
that you can think of that relate to you
4:02
know your learning disability yeah i
4:04
have a very very very strong memory i
4:07
remember things that
4:09
most people with a neurotypical brain
4:11
wouldn’t and that comes as both a
4:13
blessing and a curse as i remember
4:15
everything so
4:16
my joke is like people have to watch
4:18
what they say to me because i’m gonna
4:19
hold on to that forever my brain will
4:21
hold on to it
4:23
but again it’s about the blessing and a
4:24
curse people will come to me if they
4:26
need help remembering some random thing
4:28
that happened in fourth grade on a
4:30
tuesday and my brain will just pick that
4:32
up and things that most of my classmates
4:34
that i keep in touch with don’t remember
4:36
but that’s okay
4:38
how do the memories come up for you is
4:41
it like a visual memory you know people
4:43
talk about memories being attached to
4:45
like smells or like photographic memory
4:48
and things like that like what does it
4:49
appear like for you
4:51
there are times where
4:52
everything is just so vivid and it feels
4:54
like i’m back there again
4:56
you know i remember the feel of my
4:58
elementary school desks i remember the
5:00
way that the chairs felt when i had to
5:02
sit in them for hours
5:04
i remember snack time being at 9 30 in
5:07
my staring at the clock i remember the
5:09
songs that were stuck in my head because
5:11
i was allowed to listen to my cd player
5:13
on the bus well
5:15
you know i can immediately think oh
5:17
fifth grade and all those things will
5:18
just come to my brain i remember where i
5:20
sat that entire year i remember where i
5:22
sat every single year starting from
5:25
first grade because that’s when we had
5:26
desks so believe me when i say when i
5:28
remember everything i remember
5:30
everything
5:31
yeah i think it’s so interesting that
5:33
you say that after a lot of reflection
5:35
and therapy it kind of redefined what it
5:39
means to you
5:40
was there a particular moment where that
5:43
shift happened or when you really
5:45
learned something about yourself
5:48
yeah some of it or most of it actually
5:51
was during cobid when you know i was
5:53
trying to find a job and
5:55
thinking about what i really wanted to
5:57
do and how social work was still
6:00
relevant to that but
6:01
i knew that i wanted a broader scope of
6:04
ways to work with students
6:06
a lot of the introspection came from if
6:09
i was going to start working i needed to
6:11
consider a lot of things i needed to get
6:13
to know myself a little bit better and
6:15
to come to terms with my challenges
6:17
because in the past i didn’t always come
6:19
to terms with what i really struggled
6:20
with and it took me a very long time to
6:23
really open up about some of the things
6:25
that i’ve been dealing with for years
6:28
so we’ve talked a little bit about your
6:29
non-verbal learning disabilities or
6:32
nvlds let’s transition a bit and talk
6:35
about your job and your career
6:38
how did you decide to become a school
6:39
counselor and
6:41
how did you decide to focus on learning
6:42
differences where did it all start
6:45
i knew from a young ish age that i
6:48
wanted to be a psychologist i used to
6:50
even in middle school i used to go
6:51
around saying that i was gonna make
6:53
people pay money to see my face and
6:55
listen to me talk for an hour and give
6:57
them advice because that sounded really
6:58
easy right no it’s not
7:01
but you know that little running joke
7:03
stuck with me all those years and i
7:05
ended up majoring in psychology in
7:07
college and
7:09
i took some time off to get my
7:10
certificate because i knew that i wanted
7:12
to work with students with learning
7:14
disabilities i knew that i wanted to be
7:16
in that field
7:17
i just wasn’t sure what capacity yet and
7:19
then
7:20
i
7:21
thought about social work and it felt
7:23
like it would give me a whole wide range
7:26
of opportunities that
7:28
i might not necessarily get had i
7:30
majored gone for my master’s in
7:32
psychology
7:33
and i knew i wanted to provide students
7:35
with support and
7:37
some support that i didn’t necessarily
7:39
receive yeah i was going to say so
7:41
you feel like you want to be that person
7:43
that you didn’t really have and i am
7:45
that person in my school i have students
7:47
show up at my office all the time with
7:50
different needs and sometimes they just
7:51
want to hang out sometimes they want to
7:53
tell me something good that happened in
7:55
their life and i love that i’m glad that
7:57
you can be there for them
7:58
yeah yeah too i definitely love it it’s
8:01
challenging but i’m doing what i love
8:03
and it’s all i can really ask for i
8:04
think so you were making the distinction
8:07
between social work and psychology do
8:09
you want to talk a little bit about how
8:12
you came to discover that distinction
8:14
and then also figure out like what your
8:16
niche would be and why working in a
8:18
school might be the best fit for you i
8:21
always knew that i wanted to work with
8:22
students even from the beginning of
8:24
college i knew that i wanted to work in
8:26
the learning disabilities field and then
8:28
as time went on i was like i can see
8:30
myself working in a school because you
8:32
know i knew i wanted to be working with
8:33
students i
8:35
kind of saw myself being a school social
8:37
worker but i knew that social work would
8:39
have helped me find
8:40
my way in terms of what i wanted to do
8:42
and social work really combined the
8:44
aspect of social justice which i love
8:46
and the psychological aspect and
8:49
social workers there’s a lot of
8:51
stigma and stereotypes about social
8:54
workers and what we do and
8:56
those stereotypes are not true we don’t
8:59
knock on doors and take away people’s
9:01
kids that’s not what we do
9:03
social workers do a lot of things and in
9:05
my case that means i wear different hats
9:07
right i’m still an lmsw i’m a licensed
9:10
master social worker
9:11
but i combine that with
9:14
my graduate certificate in learning
9:16
disabilities all my skills together and
9:19
everything i wanted to be doing as a
9:20
student assistance professional
9:22
yeah it’s pretty cool that you were able
9:23
to combine your interests in that way to
9:26
like find the perfect role for you that
9:28
fits in with both your interests and
9:30
like your qualifications what would you
9:31
say is the biggest overlap between those
9:34
two hats i mean one of them is like i
9:37
said the social justice aspect knowing
9:40
how to
9:41
sit and counsel students and knowing how
9:45
to complete referrals and make
9:47
connections when need be
9:49
and then the other side of that is the
9:51
educational component is my certificate
9:54
in learning disabilities and also my
9:56
lived experience so i have a dual
9:59
background in education and social work
10:01
and what i’m doing now really combines
10:02
the two in my very strong but humble
10:05
opinion
10:07
i mean that’s what this show is about
10:08
it’s about showcasing your strengths
10:10
yeah i just want to go back to something
10:12
you said earlier so you said in school
10:15
you weren’t necessarily getting the
10:16
support that you needed or wanted
10:20
do you want to talk a little bit about
10:22
when you found out you had a non-verbal
10:24
learning disability and how that showed
10:26
up for you at school and maybe even the
10:29
kind of support that you would have
10:31
liked that you’re now reflecting back
10:33
thinking that you never really got at
10:35
the time yeah this is always a heavy one
10:37
but
10:38
i was diagnosed when i was 14
10:41
and yeah it’s a little late in the game
10:43
and i struggled for years before that
10:45
but my struggles weren’t as clear-cut i
10:48
was having a hard time with tests and
10:51
getting my homework done by myself but
10:53
to be fair i had a lot of homework and
10:55
that never should have happened
10:57
i just really struggled and my struggles
10:59
only got worse until high school when i
11:00
was failing my classes
11:03
and before i just failed tests i never
11:04
actually failed a class so my parents
11:07
were like we want answers and so i got
11:09
diagnosed and yeah it provided us with a
11:12
lot of answers but at the same time it
11:13
was like this is hard this is really
11:16
rough
11:17
and it sounds like from there you were
11:19
eventually able to go to college and to
11:22
get your degrees what do you think
11:24
helped you get to that place
11:26
well i went to a school called landmark
11:28
college it’s for students with learning
11:30
disabilities and they just taught me so
11:33
much and i learned so many
11:35
study strategies and writing strategies
11:38
and for the first time i genuinely felt
11:41
smart or i had that foundation to know
11:43
how to feel smart i just knew how to
11:45
help myself and that didn’t stop with
11:48
landmark like i’m still learning how to
11:49
help myself i’m still learning what i
11:51
need and you know that goes back to what
11:52
i said earlier about finding myself
11:55
it’s a process and it didn’t end with
11:57
landmark and it isn’t ending with my
12:00
work now it’s only beginning
12:02
so you mentioned that you were able to
12:05
apply like some of the things that you
12:07
learned at landmark later in life how
12:09
did that help you through your studies
12:11
and even you know now and the work that
12:13
you do i like to pass the things i
12:16
learned onto my students and i think of
12:18
what was done with me at landmark was i
12:20
would go to a place called the drake
12:21
center for academic support you can go
12:24
and make an appointment with a teacher
12:26
or a tutor there and they’ll say okay
12:28
what are you working on and you can work
12:30
on an essay or study strategies
12:33
and one of the things that landmark did
12:35
with me is working on learning how to
12:37
read documents and saying okay what did
12:40
i just read what did i just learn and
12:42
that’s one of the things that i do with
12:43
my students so it sounds like you’re
12:45
pretty open about your differences at
12:47
work is it just with the kids or is it
12:49
also with your colleagues kind of both
12:51
you know i’ve disclosed that part of why
12:54
i am where i am in life now is
12:56
my struggles have led me to my strengths
12:59
and made me want to make a difference
13:02
and with my students i’ll say some
13:04
things like you know if they tell me i
13:06
have dyslexia i have adhd and i said i
13:08
get it i have a learning disability
13:10
myself and some of them will look at me
13:11
with these wide eyes like somebody gets
13:13
it and i said where i am in life right
13:15
now like this did not happen overnight
13:17
but if i can get here you can get here
13:19
too i’m just here to help you do that i
13:21
hear that in my research a lot from
13:23
people when they’re reflecting back as
13:25
adults thinking about who made an impact
13:27
in their lives and it is often a teacher
13:29
that shares oh i have adhd too or i have
13:32
dyslexia too and just feeling like
13:34
you’re not alone and you can also
13:36
see an adult who’s successful has a job
13:39
doing pretty good can make a really big
13:41
difference for a young person definitely
13:43
for sure and i want to be that person i
13:45
went into this wanting to be that person
13:48
so what do you find challenging about
13:49
your job one of the things i find
13:51
challenging is the burnout level
13:53
because everybody is very tired right
13:55
now and i also wear another hat in
13:58
supporting students and staff mental
14:00
health and i always want to make sure my
14:02
students are staying on track and that’s
14:04
why i set up weekly counseling meetings
14:06
or check-in meetings with them but i’m
14:07
also here for staff
14:09
and you really you see things from the
14:11
other perspective when i was a student
14:13
for so many years and i never knew what
14:15
it was like to be a faculty member now i
14:17
do and i see that from both ends
14:19
and then another challenging part of it
14:21
is of course when you work in a school
14:22
you deal with some challenging family
14:25
systems and you have some behaviors that
14:29
are who have to deal with but i think
14:30
the way that i deal with that for the
14:32
most part is
14:34
doing my own self-care and remembering
14:36
that if a kid is acting out it’s you
14:37
know coming from a place of pain and
14:39
struggle and my school’s mentality is
14:42
every student every day whatever it
14:43
takes we want to get to every student
14:45
and part of my job is to help keep up
14:47
that motivation and morale
14:50
so how do learning differences impact
14:52
you at work what challenges come with
14:54
your learning disability i don’t face ld
14:56
related challenges on the job so much as
14:59
i know what i need to do to process
15:01
information so it’s like i tell students
15:03
if i have my notebook don’t worry about
15:05
it this is just how i process and
15:06
remember information and they’re like
15:08
okay none of them are really phased by
15:10
it i don’t think my notebook is
15:12
especially when i’m working with
15:14
students for the first time
15:16
i will write their name down who their
15:18
advisor is some of the things that they
15:20
tell me but i also don’t write down too
15:22
much because i don’t want to seem like
15:23
i’m too intense i also want it to be
15:25
like we’re having a conversation
15:27
and i take my notebook to all of my
15:29
meetings and i just write things down
15:31
and i do calligraphy and at this point
15:34
i’m pretty proud of my handwriting
15:35
overall when it doesn’t look like
15:36
chicken scratch it actually looks really
15:38
nice so i take my notebook and i’m able
15:41
to refer to it and it’s how i stay
15:42
organized in some ways i’m kind of old
15:44
school when it comes to staying
15:46
organized i like my notebook instead of
15:48
having everything in a million places on
15:50
my phone
15:51
so you just kind of communicate what
15:53
helps you yeah and like i know you said
15:55
you didn’t really feel supported at
15:57
school like do you feel a little bit
15:58
more supported now at work yeah i
16:01
work with such an amazing team i um told
16:03
them i was doing this podcast so shout
16:05
out to everyone i work with you guys are
16:07
awesome everyone at twin valley
16:09
yeah i just i work with an amazing team
16:11
and
16:12
i have really found my niche working
16:14
with teenagers and it works it works
16:17
with who i am as a person with my sense
16:19
of humor with all of my skills i just i
16:21
like that age group a lot and it
16:23
probably has something to do with the
16:25
fact that i was diagnosed in high school
16:27
and high school in general just sucks
16:28
for a lot of people so
16:30
if i can be the person that makes it
16:32
kind of suck not as much lack of a
16:34
better way to say it i think that’s
16:35
pretty cool
16:36
i got into this line of work because i
16:39
was a kid growing up with an undiagnosed
16:40
learning disability so most of my
16:43
students know i have a learning
16:44
disability or i say i’m neurodivergent
16:46
and a lot of my students are
16:47
neurodivergent too so i won’t mention
16:50
briefly every so often that i’m here
16:53
because of that struggle that struggle
16:55
led me to my strength so when i get
16:57
questions about what i do i talk about
16:59
being neuro-divergent having that lead
17:01
me here and then wanting to be that
17:03
person that people can trust and open up
17:06
to and
17:07
be listened by it sounds like your own
17:10
personal experiences make you really
17:12
good at your job i have lived experience
17:14
and the students are really able to
17:17
relate to me and they’re drawn to me
17:18
because of not just my age but who i am
17:21
as a person and i’ve had students come
17:23
in my office who
17:25
have learning disabilities who have
17:27
dyslexia who have adhd and this is hard
17:29
to describe over a podcast but i’ve said
17:31
this to my colleagues and i’ve said it
17:33
to some of my students it’s like you’re
17:34
right here you’re right on one side and
17:36
on the other side is your full potential
17:38
or the person that we can get you to be
17:40
not even just your full potential
17:42
because we don’t know what your full
17:43
potential is but there’s another place
17:45
that we can get you and we have to help
17:47
build that bridge connected from those
17:49
two places if we can help build that
17:51
bridge and help you cross it that’s part
17:53
of my job do you have any advice for
17:55
anyone with a learning disability or a
17:57
difference that is looking for a job or
18:00
a career and like maybe they have
18:01
similar challenges to you yeah my advice
18:04
or just something to remind you of is
18:06
that your voice matters you matter i
18:09
have students come in my office and i
18:10
tell them that when you’re in this room
18:12
with me or whenever really you you
18:14
matter and i’m always going to tell you
18:16
that you matter and my job is to
18:19
validate you and to listen to you when
18:20
you hear you and some of them have never
18:22
heard that before so what i want to say
18:24
to people like me
18:25
or to anybody you matter and you deserve
18:27
to be heard and validated for your
18:29
struggles and some people are never
18:30
gonna get it because they’re not in our
18:32
shoes but i get it
18:33
i get it and i hear you and i see you
18:35
and you’re valid i understand the
18:37
challenges and the struggle and i’m
18:40
gonna keep fighting i’m gonna keep doing
18:41
what i love doing and hopefully make
18:44
this world a little bit better than what
18:46
it is now yeah i hope so
18:48
i think that it sounds like you are
18:50
really making a difference for those
18:51
students thanks so much for coming on
18:56
[Music]
19:06
this has been how’d you get that job a
19:08
part of the understood podcast network
19:10
you can listen and subscribe to how did
19:12
you get that job on apple spotify or
19:15
wherever you get your podcast
19:16
and if you like what you heard today
19:18
tell someone about it
19:19
how’d you get that job is for you so we
19:21
want to make sure you’re getting what
19:22
you need go to u.org that job to share
19:25
your thoughts and to find resources from
19:27
every episode that’s the letter u as in
19:30
understood.org
19:32
that job
19:34
do you have a learning difference in a
19:35
job you’re passionate about email us at
19:37
that job understood.org if you’d like to
19:40
tell us how you got that job we’d love
19:42
to hear from you
19:44
as a non-profit and social impact
19:46
organization i’m just literalizing the
19:47
help of listeners like you to create
19:49
podcasts like this one to reach and
19:51
support more people in more places we
19:53
have an ambitious mission to shape the
19:55
world for difference and we welcome you
19:56
to join us in achieving our goals learn
19:59
more at understood.org
20:01
mission
20:02
how’d you get that job is produced by
20:04
andrew lee and justin d wright who also
20:06
wrote our theme song
20:08
laura key is our editorial director at
20:10
understood scott cashier is our creative
20:12
director
20:13
seth melnick and briana berry are our
20:15
production directors thanks again for
20:17
listening
20:19
[Music]
20:40
you

—

This post was previously published on YouTube.

***

You may also like these posts on The Good Men Project:

Escape the Act Like a Man Box

What We Talk About When We Talk About Men

Why I Don’t Want to Talk About Race

The First Myth of the Patriarchy: The Acorn on the Pillow

—

Photo credit: Shutterstock

The post Why I Chose To Be a School Counselor (and the role of NVLD) [Video] appeared first on The Good Men Project.